Се урна авионот на полскиот претседател

Факти, причини и последици од авионските несреќи.
Facts, reasons and outcomes from aircrash investigations.
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Scylla
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'VIP syndrome' and pilot error blamed for crash

President's anxiety about missing ceremony may have led to doomed landing

By Shaun Walker in Moscow

Russian authorities yesterday insisted that pilot error was behind the plane crash that killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski, as Polish investigation teams arrived at the crash scene to carry out their own inquiry.

Igor Levitin, the Russian Minister of Transport, said the "black box" flight recorders had been recovered from the crash site in good condition.

"A group in Moscow has begun the decoding of the recorders, the quality of the recording is good, and there is every chance that we will be able to gain all information about the flight," Mr Levitin said during a meeting with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. All the deciphering work is being done in collaboration with Polish officials.

Alexander Alyoshin, deputy chief of the Russian Air Force's general staff, said the pilot had ignored several orders from air-traffic control not to land at Smolensk because of thick fog. "The head of the air-traffic control group gave a command to the crew to put the aircraft into the horizontal position, and when the crew did not implement this order, several times gave orders to divert to an alternative airport.

"Despite this, the crew continued the descent. Unfortunately this ended in tragedy."

The airport is a small, military facility that does not usually accept civilian craft. Aviation experts speculated that the pilots may have been ordered to land by the Polish President. "It's a clear case of VIP-passenger syndrome," flight safety expert Viktor Timoshkin told Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper. "Air-traffic control told him to take the plane to Moscow or Minsk. I'm certain that the pilot will have told the President about this, and got a firm reply that the plane must land in Smolensk."

Russian authorities have agreed to a request from Polish colleagues not to begin the clean-up at the wreckage site until the middle of the week. Officials in Moscow said that two Polish delegations had arrived in the capital to carry out their own investigations. One set of 27 experts was headed for Smolensk to study the wreckage of the plane, while another 35 would remain in Moscow, where the bodies of all the victims except the President have been sent. Yesterday afternoon, the coffin carrying Mr Kaczynski was placed aboard a Polish military jet in a solemn ceremony at Smolensk Airport. Mr Putin saw off the coffin, which was draped in a Polish flag, as a guard of honour was formed and a military orchestra played. Relatives of the dead began arriving in the Russian capital last night, where they would begin the task of identifying the bodies of those who died. Russian authorities were able to identify 24 of the victims, but for some DNA tests will be required.

The ageing Tupolev 154 plane plunged into forested land just short of the runway at Smolensk Airport on Saturday morning, killing all 96 on board, including Mr Kaczynski, his wife, and dozens of top political and military officials. They had been travelling to Smolensk to attend a memorial service at nearby Katyn to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the massacre of over 20,000 Polish officers and others by Soviet forces.

Last Wednesday, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin invited his Polish counterpart, Donald Tusk, to a memorial service at Katyn, but not Mr Kaczynski, who has been a strong critic of Russia in recent years. Saturday's event had been organised to allow Mr Kaczynski to mark the anniversary also, and it is possible that Mr Kaczynski ordered the plane to land in Smolensk as any diversion would have meant that he and all the others on board would miss the ceremony.

The Polish press reported that just 36 minutes before the crash that would take his life, Mr Kaczynski called his twin brother Jaroslaw from aboard the plane, to tell him that everything was going to plan and he would soon arrive in Smolensk. The few locals who had witnessed the crash said the Tu-154 plane came in at a strange angle through the fog, with one wing tipped towards the ground. The wing clipped trees as it came in far too low, and as a result ended up crashing into the ground around 200 metres short of the runway.

One of the policemen charged with guarding the crash site shortly after the accident said it was a scene of unspeakable horror. "I didn't see anything so horrific, even in Chechnya," he said. "Everywhere there were parts of the aircraft, fragments of bodies. I only saw a couple of whole bodies. The rest was just bits of human bones caught up in the trees."

There have been more than 60 crashes involving Tu-154s in the last 40 years, six of them in the last five years. But the head of an aviation plant in Russia that overhauled the Polish presidential plane last year said it had been refitted with new electronic and navigation equipment and repairs were carried out to its engines. Alexei Gusev yesterday insisted on Russian state TV that the aircraft had been safe to fly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42116.html
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Post by Scylla »

Кратко пред уривањето на Тупољевот група полски новинари (кои всушност требале да бидат во истиот авион со претседателот, но поради бројната делегација биле префрлени на друг) слетува полски Јак-40 кој исто така е дел од ВИП флотата и ги носи новинарите успева да слета 1 час пред претседателот...Што наведува барем засега да се верува дека постоело притисок да се слета, "штом другите пред нас веќе слетаа..."
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Analysis: error, pressure or lost in translation

The controller said that the crew spoke poor Russian and failed to repeat back instructions

There is a growing suspicion that the pilot of the aircraft that crashed at Smolensk, killing the Polish President and 95 others, was deferring to military top brass when he attempted to land in thick fog.

An account today from the Russian controller who was handling the Tupolev-154 jet strengthened the belief in aviation circles that Captain Arkadiusz Protasiuk may have been under pressure to land in unacceptable conditions.

Some professionals likened his low approach to Smolensk North military airbase in fog to Russian roulette.

Captain Protasiuk, who was 36 and had relatively little experience for such a senior job, rejected advice from Paul Plyusnin, the controller, to divert to Minsk or Moscow.

The pilot told Mr Plyusnin that he would make one approach to land before switching to an alternate destination if he did not succeed.

Asked by a Russian reporter why the captain rejected the advice, the controller replied: "He had to ask someone". That appeared to confirm the assumption that the pilot was taking instructions.

Civilian and military captains are solely responsible for all decisions affecting the outcome of their flight. However, the Polish crew had among their passengers the President and the chief of the Polish air force.

They knew that President Kaczynski placed capital importance on reaching the historic ceremony commemorating the Katyn massacre, where hundreds were waiting.

He also knew that the President did not brook delays and had clashed in 2008 with another pilot who refused his orders to land in Tbilisi, Georgia, after controllers advised that it was too dangerous.

Pilots everywhere brief VIP passengers over decisions such as a diversion.

Lech Walesa, the former Polish President, said that Captain Protasiuk would have been expected to consult. However, pilots are trained to resist pressure to take wrong decisions.

The temptation to "give it a go" rather than abort an approach, has brought many a flier to doom – without the additional stress of impatient national leaders as passengers. Wishful thinking blurs normal judgment to create the syndrome known as "get-there-itis".

In the classic disaster, the crew drop below the minimum safe altitude in the belief that they are about to see the runway. The rules require pilots to break off the approach at a stipulated minimum height if they cannot see the "runway environment".

At Smolensk, the Tu-154 was required to stay quite high because the aerodrome lacks a modern landing system. It descended below the standard glide-path and through the minimum altitude before hitting trees.

It is not known yet whether the crew had already realised their mistake and tried to stop their descent. There are suggestions that the Tupolev's three Soloviev engines may have failed to spool up on command as the crew halted their descent, but the Tu-154 is viewed by pilots as a reliable aircraft.

Other factors emerged today. The controller said that the crew spoke poor Russian – the language used for their communications. They also failed to follow the normal procedure of repeating back instructions.

Pilots familiar with Russian procedures speculated yesterday that there may have been confusion over the altimetre readings of the Polish crew. Russia procedures on this differ from the international standard.

Many in Poland are casting doubt on the Russian version of events.

All mystery should be cleared quickly by the "black box" recorders. They main key may be the tapes of conversation on the flight-deck just before the crash.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 095423.ece
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Post by AlexGreat »

hmmm...pilotite slabo razbirale ruski??? mozno..ista greska kako avionot vo blizina na Ohrid sto rokna..mislam isto deka poradi toa bese..nasiov kontrolor rekol "pravo" a pilotot otisol desno..po ruski neli.
E sega neznam ova dali e tocno no taka imam slusnato uste porano..ispravete me ako gresam.
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Post by Trpkovski Vladimir »

Кои пилоти не разбирале руски ???
Овој авион го возат пилоти на полкото воено воздухопловство, сите од нив без проблеми разбираат и зборуваат руски.
Како што поминува времето, се ми се чини дека причините за падот на авионот се политички. Политичар наредил авионот да слета, па пилотот морал да послуша (иако по правило, пилотот е биг бос во авионот, ама да одбиеш директна наредба на прецедател и командант на военото воздухопловство е малку потешко).
"Тонеме се подлабоко , моралот ни е на висина" - Извод од историскиот филм "Доброволци"
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Post by IgorMKD »

Trpkovski Vladimir wrote:Кои пилоти не разбирале руски ???
Овој авион го возат пилоти на полкото воено воздухопловство, сите од нив без проблеми разбираат и зборуваат руски.

Како што поминува времето, се ми се чини дека причините за падот на авионот се политички. Политичар наредил авионот да слета, па пилотот морал да послуша (иако по правило, пилотот е биг бос во авионот, ама да одбиеш директна наредба на прецедател и командант на военото воздухопловство е малку потешко).
Зашто мислиш така Владо? Двајцата пилоти кои управувале со авионот имаат завршено воено воздухопловна академија во 1997 година. Не се советска школа да морале задолжително да говорат руски јазик.

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Post by Valter »

Да и мене ме збуни малку.Млади се пилотиве за да се од таа школа.И нели е задолжителна комуникацијата на Англиски или грешам?
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Valter wrote:Да и мене ме збуни малку.Млади се пилотиве за да се од таа школа.И нели е задолжителна комуникацијата на Англиски или грешам?
Само на хартија. Примери безброј, Шпанија, Русија, Франција, Јужна Америка и многу други во цивилниот свет каде муабетите се водат на локален јазик, додека пак за воените аеродроми и КЛ не важат истите закони, таму се очекува конверзацијата да е исклучиво на локалниот јазик.
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Post by Mad Scientist »

Scylla wrote:
Valter wrote:Да и мене ме збуни малку.Млади се пилотиве за да се од таа школа.И нели е задолжителна комуникацијата на Англиски или грешам?
Само на хартија. Примери безброј, Шпанија, Русија, Франција, Јужна Америка и многу други во цивилниот свет каде муабетите се водат на локален јазик, додека пак за воените аеродроми и КЛ не важат истите закони, таму се очекува конверзацијата да е исклучиво на локалниот јазик.
Во повеќето држави (вклучувајќи ја тука и Македонија) воздухопловни јазици се Англиски и службениот јазик на државата, што значи дека е дозволена употреба и на двата јазика. На аеродромите како што е Смоленск веројатно никогаш не ни прозбореле Англиски заради тоа што немаат интернационален сообраќај иако, рака на срце ни во остатокот од Русија не е многу подобро .
Last edited by Mad Scientist on 13 Apr 2010, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
[color=blue]No good deed remains unpunished.[/color]

Нормален текст - Пишува љубител на авијација
[b][i][color=red]Здебелен црвен и искосен текст - Пишува модератор[/b][/i][/color]
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Post by Bobo »

Swiss:We need a tractor We need a tractor...Tower:Okey,we will sent you a car!
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Post by Mad Scientist »

Извадок од националниот AIP:

3.4.3.3 Language
The radiotelephony communication between all aircraft
and ATS shall be:
a. for all flights within airspace classified from A
to D (included) - English.
b. for all flights within airspace classified E and G -
English or Macedonian.

Значи, попрецизно, на Македонски смее да се зборува во Е и Г класа.
[color=blue]No good deed remains unpunished.[/color]

Нормален текст - Пишува љубител на авијација
[b][i][color=red]Здебелен црвен и искосен текст - Пишува модератор[/b][/i][/color]
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Post by cyber2smile »

Дали доколку пилотот не говорел или недоволно го разбира јазикот на кој го наведува контролорот, во случајов - руски, може да го откаже слетувањето???

Како и многу пати досега пак ќе речам, за секоја несреќа виновник е пилотот-капетан, одговорноста е негова, тој е главен по хиерархија додека го управува и неговиот збор е последен!!


За истово ме критикуваа и кога пишував за нашите несреќи.

Бог да ги прости настраданите.
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Post by Bobo »

Како и многу пати досега пак ќе речам, ЗА СЕКОЈА НЕСРЕЌА виновник е пилотот-капетан, одговорноста е негова, тој е главен по хиерархија додека го управува и неговиот збор е последен!!

Има случаи каде што тој е ТОЈ што кажува,прави и наредува.
Но што ако му откажат 2та Мотори?Што ако влезе во јато птици?Што ако....(милион друго причини)[/quote]
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Post by cyber2smile »

И моторите да откажат , повторно одлуките се негови, нели. Многу мал процент на несреќи се од технички нерешливи причини, а кога веќе треба пример за таков случај - спуштањето во реката Хадсон :) и птици и откажување мотор ...

Само работа треба - летање и надградување на летачкиот и помошниот кадар, да не кажам и симулации, искуството си го прави своето .
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Post by BORG »

Samo edno moe viduvanje na seto ova ......


....On January 18, 1977 Džemal Bijedić, his wife Razija and six others were killed when their Learjet 25 crashed on the Inač mountain near Kreševo, Bosnia and Herzegovina. The plane took off from Batajnica Air Base in Belgrade and was en route to Sarajevo when it crashed, ostensibly due to poor weather conditions. Conspiracy theorists have suggested that the crash was not an accident but rather the result of foul play at the hands of his Serbian rivals....

.....Trajkovski died on February 26, 2004 in a plane crash en route to an economic conference in Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegovina. The aircraft crashed in very poor weather (thick fog and heavy rain) on a mountainside in southeastern Herzegovina, near the villages of Huskovici and Rotimlja some eight miles (15 km) south-south-east of Mostar. Eight other people were also aboard but none survived the impact, which broke the aircraft into three pieces. It came down in an area that had been heavily mined during the Bosnian War of the 1990s, which significantly hampered the rescue and recovery efforts.
Although the cause of the crash is not known, it seems likely that it was the result of a controlled flight into terrain, possibly exacerbated by alleged mistakes made by the SFOR air traffic controllers at Mostar Ortijes International Airport. The approach to the airport's Runway 34 has been criticized by pilots for being difficult to handle, and as the runway is not equipped with precision landing systems, it is especially challenging in bad weather. The crash is not the first major air accident to kill a politician in southern Herzegovina: on April 3, 1996, the United States Secretary of Commerce Ronald Brown was killed while en route from Bosnia to Croatia......

.......On 10 April 2010 a Tupolev Tu-154 plane carrying President Kaczyński, his wife Maria Kaczyńska and other members of a Polish delegation were travelling from Warsaw to commemorate the Katyn massacre and crashed while approaching Smolensk Air Base in Russia at 08:56 Eastern European Time (06:56 GMT). The plane hit trees in foggy conditions about 1.5 kilometres (0.9 mi) from the airport. The governor of Smolensk Oblast confirmed for Russia 24 news channel that there were no survivors of the crash.[25]
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev immediately ordered a government commission to investigate the crash. Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was placed in charge of the investigation.[26]
96 people were killed in the crash, including many of Poland's highest military and civilian leaders.......

........The incident took place at approximately 11:00 a.m. (GMT). The helicopter was returning from a EUFOR peace keeping mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina and started to experience foggy conditions[7] whilst preparing to land at their destination — The Skopje Airport.[3] The crash was reported by two local fishermen who claimed they saw the helicopter flying unusually low. A witness stated that "The engine of the helicopter did not sound like it worked well..."[3] Witnesses also reported seeing a "fireball" as the helicopter became engulfed in flames following impact.[5] This was subsequently followed by a series of explosions, possibly triggered by a supply of kerosene or ammunition.[3]
Based on a Reuters photographer's eye-witness account, the helicopter was incinerated and debris was found up to 100 metres from the crash site......

The Federal Aviation Regulations, Part 121.651 set out the rules for 'takeoff and landing weather minimums' for airlines. You can read FAR 121.651 here if you like-
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 29b8aaff12...

There are several different levels of bad weather approach catagories. Depending on how an aircraft is equipped, they can only execute the highest level for which they are equipped.

CATEGORY I/II/III approaches refer to different levels of low visibility ILS approaches. CAT I is the least severe at 1/2 mile or 1800 RVR/runway visual range (a measuremt of runway visibility via transmissomitters near the runway.) CATIIIc is a zero/zero ILS requiring and autoland capable aircraft.

Catagory - Ceiling - Visibility:
CAT I 200 feet 1/2 mile
CATII 100 feet 1/4 mile
CATIIIa 50 feet Runway Visual Range - 1200 feet
CATIIIb 50 feet Runway Visual Range - 700 feet
CATIIIc 0 0 (zero/zero)

There are some jets that can do totally automated landings in very dense fog, but they are the exception more than the norm. To execute a totally automated touchdown in zero forward visibility not only must the airports approach be a Catagory 3/"CATIIIc" certified "ILS/Instrument Landing System", the aircraft must be equipped to use it (CATIIIc certified aircraft/autopilot) and the crew must also be trained and have a recency of experience to do the approach.
Due to the time and expense needed versus the actual times this can be used many airlines chose not to install it.

Airplanes with CATIIIc capability have at least two, and usually three autopilots that operate together during an autoland so if one fails there is a backup to get the airplane down. Each of the autopilots has its own dedicated inputs (i.e. power sources, control positions sensors, attitude and directional data, etc) to reduce the possibility of a single failure in the system that would result in bad things. If any one factor is missing it cannot be done. Additionally, most aircraft are not CATIIIc certified for zero/zero landings. Many are CAT II or even CATI certified, so in foggy conditions below their landing criteria, they will not be able to even initiate an approach to the airfield per Federal Aviation Regulations. In instances where this is the case, that is why the airport is "closed" to those flights, even if the airport does have a CATIIIc ILS.

Read all about an ILS and how it works here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_Landing_System
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Post by Scylla »

Борг, баш денеска размислував за несреќава и пилотите и ми текна на несреќата во 1977 година кога загина тогашниот премиер на СФРЈ. Лирџет 25 се урна во магла на некоја од планините близу Сарајево, со двајца познати каубојци од пилоти во авионот. И двајцата редовно санкционирани во ЈНА, забранети слетувања на аеродромите во Москва и Париз, над 60 години возраст...Политичката заднина да не ја спомнуваме воопшто, зошто Биједиќ беше уште тогаш сметан за најголемиот фаворит кој ќе го наследи Маршалот...

Во другиов случај имаме млади пилоти со 10 годишен летачки стаж и околу 1900 часа налет...Што е под секоја норма за екипаж на линиски превоз, а камоли претседателски авион.
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Post by IgorMKD »

Пилотот постојано зборувал за проблеми со претседателскиот авион

Родителите на загинатиот пилот кој го превезувал полскиот претседател на неговиот последен лет, ги отфрлаат гласините дека за несреќата е виновен нивниот син.

Тие го загубија саканиот син, а сега освен што мораат да се соочат со големата загуба, мораат и да се борат за неговата репутација. Педесет и деветгодишната Лусина и 60-годишниот Владислав Олкиш од Полска не можат да веруваат дека нивниот син Арек, пилот на претседателскиот авион загинал. Уште потешко им е кога нивниот мртов син е обвинуван за смртта на претседателот Лех Качински, пишува полскиот весник “Супер експрес“.

“Нашиот син не погрешил, не би требало луѓето кон него да се однесуваат како да е машина. Тој беше најдобриот пилот“, велат родители со солзи во очите.

“Сакаше да лета. Авионот беше неговиот живот“, рекол таткото Владислав, исто така пилот.

Од 1997 година, Арек служува во 36 полк за посебен воздушен превоз, а од 2009 година бил заповедник на екипаж. Арек, како што вели неговиот син, зад себе имал 1939 часови лет и секогаш безбедно превезувал функционери. Прашањето што ги мачи е: Што би можело да се случи?

“Нашиот син често говореше за технички проблеми на државниот авион“, рекол таткото на пилотот и како примери ги навел летовите во Кина и Хаити.

Таткото го отфрла тврдењето дека дошло до недоразбирање поради комуникацијата на руски, бидејќи Арек руски говорел течно. Мајката Лусина раскажала дека се сеќава на последниот разговор. Пред патувањето ги повикал за да им каже дека патува.

“Тој секогаш радо не посетуваше, а сега неговиот живот е готов“, рекла Лусина.

Автор на веста: Нетпрес
Објавена на 13.04.2010 12:42:19

http://www.netpress.com.mk/vest.asp?id= ... tegorija=6
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Scylla
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Post by Scylla »

Black boxes reveal two landing attempts, not four

Contrary to initial reports, an examination of the Tu-154's black box flight recorders revealed that the crew made two, not four attempts at landing.

Three black boxes have been recovered from the wreck of the presidential plane which crashed in Smolensk on Saturday. Two flight recorders have already been examined, the third will be sent to Moscow today for examination.

“We’ve got two recorders: a voice recorder and a flight parameters recorder. The Aviation Committee in Moscow has examined them and will soon publish a report on what happened on board of the plane just before the crash,” said Col. Zbigniew Rzepa, who, along with five Russian experts, is investigating the black boxes in Moscow.

Rzepa added that the boxes are slightly damaged but only on the surface. The recordings are intact, which means that the reconstruction of pilots’ conversations with the air traffic controllers will be fairly easy.

The initial examination of the two black boxes showed that the crew had been advised not to land but ignored the warning and made two attempts to land. The flight recordings also reveal that Polish pilots, who communicated with the air traffic controllers in English and Russian, did not report any technical problems with the craft. The pilots also contacted the crew of two other planes which were in the vicinity.

Today the committee will examine the conversations recorded in the pilots’ cabin.

http://www.thenews.pl/national/artykul1 ... -four.html
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Post by Scylla »

Сателитска снимка од местото на ударот

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Post by IgorMKD »

Респект Scylla! Никако да ми стане јасно како се нашле таму.
"Dodju tako ponekad vremena, kada pamet zacuti, budala progovori, a fukara se obogati" - Ivo Andrić
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